James Kelsall father of Betty Becca Kelsall 18th Century

Have you found a stray? Or have you lost track of one? Stuck on a brickwall?

James Kelsall father of Betty Becca Kelsall 18th Century

Postby Andrew » Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:17 pm

I have been able to trace my family from Betty Becca Kelsall's marriage to Jonas Wilson Glenton in 1787 in Liverpool. Her father was James Kelsall but I have not been able to assign him to other documented families of Kelsalls in Liverpool. Searches for "James Kelsall" on Ancestry and in Trade Directories can be summarised:

1743 Marriage of James Kelsall to Margaret Wilkinson, All Saints
1745 Baptism of Wilkinson Kelsell son of James Kelsell, St George
1748 Baptism of Sarah Kelsal daughter of James Kelsal, St George
1750 Marriage of James Kelsall, husbandman to Margaret Sherwood, St George
1756 Baptism of Colonell son of James Kelsall, Land Surveyor, Martindale’s Hill, St Nicholas
1763 Baptism of John Kelsall son of James Kelsall, Land Surveyor, St Peter
1764 Baptism of Betty Beccah Kelsall daugter of james Kelsall, Land Surveyor, St Peter
1773 Gore’s Directory for Liverpool:
Kelsall James, surveyor in the customs, 2, Martindales' hill
Kelsall Richard, attorney, 2, ditto. Office, 11, Prince's st., Dale st.
Kelsall Richard, King's boatman, 9, Peter st
1787 Marriage of Betty Becca Kelsall to Jonas Wilson Glenton, Merchant of Derby Square.
Witnesses: Sarah Kelsall, Margaret Glenton, Robt ????, Richd Kelsall

I think that there are cases to be made for and against a connection with Richard Kelsall (d.1749) and Sarah King d.1766? Any comments would be appreciated.
Andrew
Forum Member
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:29 pm

Re: James Kelsall father of Betty Becca Kelsall 18th Century

Postby Anne.Kelsall » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:39 am

I am fairly certain that the James KELSALL who married Margaret WILKINSON is the eldest son of Alderman Richard KELSALL and heiress Sarah KING. I think the main reason I was confident was due to very few KELSALLs in and immediately around Liverpool at the time, and his standing.

I believe that this James KELSALL, primarily listed as a Land Surveyor, and Customs too, died in 1792. Someone sent me a transcript of a newspaper article (which I have not been able to find online):
World (6 July 1792)
Died...
Saturday morning, at Liverpool, in the 72d year of his age, James Kelsall, Esq.


This does tie in with his baptism (29 Jul 1719 St Nicholas, Liverpool), the DOB given was 05 Jul 1719 - and he must have died not long before his birthday (the newspaper article dated 06 Jul, so must have been perhaps up to a week before when he died).

The children that I assigned to James KELSALL and Margaret WILKINSON were:
Wilkinson KELSALL - 19 NOV 1745 St George Castle St, Liverpool
Sarah KELSALL - 30 AUG 1748 St George Castle St, Liverpool
George KELSALL - 14 SEP 1750 St Nicholas, Liverpool
Elizabeth KELSALL - 17 SEP 1753 St Nicholas, Liverpool
Peggy KELSALL - 24 JUL 1755 St Nicholas, Liverpool
Colonel James KELSALL - 17 DEC 1756 St Nicholas, Liverpool
Richard KELSALL - (no bapt date, but attached as mentioned in spinster sisters wills/admon)
Jane KELSALL - 07 APR 1760 St George Castle St, Liverpool

The switching between churches is a bit of a concern, but not unheard of.

The "1750 Marriage of James Kelsall, husbandman to Margaret Sherwood, St George" is very interesting - do you suppose that Margaret WILKINSON died young and he remarried, or would this be another James KELSALL? Do you have a link for that one? If it conflicts with the 1750 birth of George KELSALL, then we have to assume that there was another James KELSALL around.

Certainly the witnesses of the Betty Beccah KELSALL & Jonas Wilson GLENTON are interesting - in that Sarah and Peggy above remained spinsters. The Richard KELSALL mentioned could be the brother, I only have him as "gentleman", but solicitor would fit with that. It appears that Sarah, Peggy and Richard were all unmarried, and turned up as witnesses to the marriage of Jane KELSALL to John BROOME, Merchant of Manchester (26 Nov 1793 St George, Derby Sq, Liverpool).

Given that there is a baptism for Elizabeth (b 1753) and a separate baptism for Betty Beccah (b 1764) I guess we could assume that the first Elizabeth didn't make it to adulthood (I could not reliably marry her off). However, it might indicate (if the same James KELSALL) as father, that he remarried? Or maybe he just switched churches AGAIN.

The siblings I tied together were:
Father: James KELSALL, Mother: not stated
1) John KELSALL - 09 MAR 1763 Saint Peter, Liverpool
2) Betty Beccah KELSALL - 02 APR 1764 Saint Peter, Liverpool

And yes, compelling in that one child of Betty Beccah's was Richard Kelsall GLENTON (bapt 17 JUN 1794 St George Castle St, Liverpool), who was HM Customs (1841 & 1861 census).

So I guess the best assumptions that could be made would be that John & Betty Beccah were the final two, and quite possibly Margaret WILKINSON was the mother, although the possibility remains that there was a second marriage for James KELSALL if it was at the beginning (January) of 1749-50 (old calendar at that time).

What is your thinking on this?
Joseph KELSALL (c1753-1841) and Rachael HICKSON (c1766-1828)
One of the two major "army" Kelsall lines.
Descendants in England, Australia, Ireland & Canada
User avatar
Anne.Kelsall
Moderator
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:41 pm

Re: James Kelsall father of Betty Becca Kelsall 18th Century

Postby Anne.Kelsall » Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:33 am

Here is what I have on the descendants of Betty Becca KELSALL:
(compiled from the IGI Batch: P019711, census, probate calendars, and a few misc directories etc)

Betty Becca KELSALL (dau of James KELSALL)
b 12 MAR 1764
chr 02 APR 1764 Saint Peter, Liverpool
m 29 Sep 1787 St George, Liv
bur 28 Feb 1822 Holy Trinity Church, Liverpool

married to:
Jonas Wilson GLENTON
Merchant of Liverpool
b ?
d aft 1815 & [poss pre-1822 ????]
bur [UNK] Holy Trinity Church, Liverpool
d 1844 Liverpool
son of Matthew GLENTON & Mary WILSON

Children:

1. Margaret Jane GLENTON
Spinster
b 11 JUN 1788
chr 10 JUL 1788 St George Castle St, Liverpool
bur [1831 Holy Trinity Church, Liverpool] ?

2. Matthew James GLENTON
Bachelor
b 26 AUG 1789
chr 24 SEP 1789 St George Castle St, Liverpool
m unmarried in 1851 census
d 02 Mar 1868 Brighton (age as 82, a few years out)
will proven 30 Jun 1868

3. Harriet GLENTON
b 30 OCT 1791
chr 01 DEC 1791 St George Castle St, Liverpool
bur 15 Dec 1791 St George, Liverpool

4. Eliza GLENTON
Spinster
b 19 OCT 1792
chr 29 NOV 1792 St George Castle St, Liverpool
d 11 Jan 1863 Everton, W Derby, Liverpool
bur 15 Jan 1863 Holy Trinity Church, Liverpool
will proven 01 May 1863

5. Richard Kelsall GLENTON
1841-HM Customs, 1861-retired customs, Bachelor
b 17 MAY 1794
chr 17 JUN 1794 St George Castle St, Liverpool
d 13 Feb 1863 W Derby, Liverpool, Lancs

6. Henry GLENTON
Carriers Clerk
b 16 MAY 1796
chr 16 JUN 1796 St George Castle St, Liverpool
m before 1822 (to Hannah/Anna Maria UNK, had issue)
d aft 1851

7. Sarah GLENTON
chr 22 MAR 1798 St George Castle St, Liverpool
m 15 Jul 1815 St Andrews, Holborn, London (to Peter BACKHOUSE Esq, had issue)
d 23 Aug 1863 Everton, West Derby

8. Jonas Wilson GLENTON
chr 06 MAR 1800 St George Castle St, Liverpool
m 20 Dec 1828 Edge Hill, Lancashire (to Mary SHARP, had issue)
d probaby Nicaragua?

9. Betsey GLENTON
chr 16 JAN 1804 St George Castle St, Liverpool
bur 1805 Holy Trinity Church, Liverpool
Joseph KELSALL (c1753-1841) and Rachael HICKSON (c1766-1828)
One of the two major "army" Kelsall lines.
Descendants in England, Australia, Ireland & Canada
User avatar
Anne.Kelsall
Moderator
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:41 pm

Re: James Kelsall father of Betty Becca Kelsall 18th Century

Postby Andrew » Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:38 pm

Many thanks for your generous replies. I will respond to the first of them later as you raise a number of issues that need thought sand research. I am not sure how much interest you have in the issue of betty Becca Kelsall. I have researched this line as my family are descendants of Sarah Glenton and Peter Backhouse. I would be happy to expand on them - outside this forum if appropriate.
I believe that after Betty Becca's death, Jonas remarried:

Jonas Wison Glenton
Christening 25 September 1763 (LDS)
Married (2) Mary Sharp
Liverpool Mercury, Friday, December 26, 1828
“MARRIED.
On Saturday last, at St Mary’s Church, Edge-hill, T.W.Glenton, Esq. surveyor in his Majesty’s
Customs of this port, to Mary, daughter of the late John Sharp, Esq. of West Ella, Yorkshire.”
He was eldest of five children: Mary 1766, Margaret 1769, Harriot 1772 - >1808, Matthew 1777. Father’s will proved 21.4.1808 and mentioned surviving children and wife.

Died 29 January 1844 (Certificate). Death registered by Sarah Backhouse.

Before I found the newspaper article I thought that this marriage might have been to JWG Jnr but he appears to have emigrated to Nicaragua in the 1820s according to numerous posts on Family History noticboards. There used to be an extensive list of children on the IGI, issue of his marriage to Theresa Gonzales in Leon, Nicaragua after 1822. The first of these was born in 1823, several more children followed. However all these records were “submitted after 1991 by a member of the LDS Church.” I have been unable to obtain any reliable sources and have been unable to retrieve the information from the new LDS site that I got in 2007.
Andrew
Forum Member
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:29 pm

Re: James Kelsall father of Betty Becca Kelsall 18th Century

Postby Andrew » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:50 pm

Some thoughts on the points you raise:

1750 Marriage between James Kelsall and Margaret Sherwood, St Georges.
I think this is a stray as his occupation is given as yeoman and he was from Walton. It seems unlikely that he became a land surveyor.

Children of James Kelsall
I have found all the additional children that you mentioned. They were all in Ancestry but none came up in searches.
I have tabulated the children born to James Kelsall(s) and his wife or wives. The ten children were born between 1745 and 1764, Richard's birth unknown.
Unfortunately the formatting is impossible here. (I could send a copy separately).

The main things that stand out are:
[*]George and Peggy both born in John St, but Elizabeth (between them in date) in Dale Street.
[*]There are no really long gaps between children from 1745 to 1764 (Betty Becca). The longest gap is between Colonell (?) James born 23.11.1760 and Jane born 14.3.1760
[*]John and Betty Becca in St Peter parish
[*]George and Peggy born in John St, Elizabeth, born between them in Dale St.

From this evidence I find it difficult to exclude the possibility that all these children were born to one James Kelsall and to one or more of his wives. However I have not seen any of the wills from members of the family. I was surprised that the "additional" children you mentioned were not shown up on Ancestry after searching for them. It raises the possibility that there may be entries mission - unless you or someone else has searched the parish registers. If there are any missing from the index they may provide evidence one way or another. I will have a browse through to see if I can find any. Also if Ancestry is not producing baptisms it may also be faulty with marriage searches.
Andrew
Forum Member
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:29 pm

Re: James Kelsall father of Betty Becca Kelsall 18th Century

Postby Anne.Kelsall » Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:01 pm

I did not think to look for a second marriage given her reasonable innings, although my mission was to least briefly do some of this line was to try to see if I could find other connections (sometimes other relatives pop up either in the probate calendar or newspaper articles etc). You are welcome to post more on the GLENTON line if you wish - I follow maternal lines as much as I do paternal ones - and perhaps it will be of interest to another Kelsall researcher at some point in the future.

I look at what I have on the BBK line, and I see that I did marry off Mary SHARP to JWG junior. mmm. I think one of the reasons why I assigned her to junior was that she was unmarried, and the timeframe was good for junior.

As for the "submitted by LDS church member" - notoriously unreliable and fanciful, I usually disregard such entries in the IGI, but if I am really stuck, I will see if I can find other evidence to prove it.

I will activate my Ancestry subscription in a few weeks, and get back into active research mode again for a bit. The probate calendar was extremely helpful last time.

The reason I am concentrating on Liverpool is that I have a hunch that my brickwall fits into this lot (most likely from one of the younger sons of Richard K/Sarah KING). I am fairly certain that he is not from the James K/Margaret WILKINSON batch, but the younger sons are a bit patchy regarding info. It is also difficult because there seemed to be an influx of Kelsalls into Liverpool in the mid/latter 18thC, and I have some family groups that don't seem to join up to the established ones, like BBK - although it does look as if she could be the baby of that family. It would be nice to tie up other evidence for that, I think it would be in the will of James KELSALL (d 1792) and hopefully he mentioned all surviving kids.
Joseph KELSALL (c1753-1841) and Rachael HICKSON (c1766-1828)
One of the two major "army" Kelsall lines.
Descendants in England, Australia, Ireland & Canada
User avatar
Anne.Kelsall
Moderator
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:41 pm

Re: James Kelsall father of Betty Becca Kelsall 18th Century

Postby Anne.Kelsall » Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:06 pm

Somewhere along the line I have (a bit of!) the marriage cert of Maxwell Peter BACKHOUSE and Mary Ann ASHTON. Really cannot recall how I came across it.
Glenton line - Maxwell BACKHOUSE.jpeg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Joseph KELSALL (c1753-1841) and Rachael HICKSON (c1766-1828)
One of the two major "army" Kelsall lines.
Descendants in England, Australia, Ireland & Canada
User avatar
Anne.Kelsall
Moderator
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:41 pm

Re: James Kelsall father of Betty Becca Kelsall 18th Century

Postby iceland1969 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:26 pm

Hi Andrew,

I am very much interested in the topic of your research. By any chance do you know the book "The Descendants of Ricards Kelsall of Lancashire England" by Alvin C., Heln Kelsall and Cindy Sue Wilson, published in 1985? The book is very hrd to come by in the USA. Perhaps you might be luckier than me in England.

If you are interested in the names and the little info I have on Jonas and Paula Theresa's children. I'll be more than glad to share it with you (and for that matter) with the rest of the group.

Best regards,

Lluis
iceland1969
Forum Member
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:19 pm

Re: James Kelsall father of Betty Becca Kelsall 18th Century

Postby Cags » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:26 pm

Dear All,
This may be of interest to you:
Matthew James GLENTON b. 26 Aug 1789 in Liverpool, Lancashire, England.
Died unmarried in 1868 at Brighton, East Sussex, England.
Matthew James GLENTON was a Private Bookkeeper/Accountant for his friend and employer Mr. EWART who owned the Mossley Hill Hall which had been built by his ancestors and passed down to him. It was nicknamed " Carnatic Hall " after the wars with the French. Details of which, I have. Matthew was leaning over the farm gate with his friend looking across the farm to Woolton, Speke and beyond, when he is reputed to have said to Mr. EWART " What a wonderful site for a church this would make ".This idea remained with Matthew James GLENTON and when GLENTON moved South, on his death in 1871 the bulk of his fortune some 40.000 pounds
(equivelant in todays money as 1.89 million pounds)was left for the building of a Church on the spot where it stands today. Michael O`Mahoney, in his "Liverpool Ways and Byeways" says of the Church that "it has one of the finest church sites in the kingdom...the great church - I might almost say minster - rises in majesty above you".
It was difficult to justify the building of a church where the population was so small and St. Anne`s was at the bottom of the hill. However, the men of wealth and power who lived in and around (North) Mossley Hill Road were not to be refused their own church at a bargain price.
Despite the objections of the neighbouring parishes from which the new parish would be carved the Bishop of Chester gave his approval and the Building Committee got to work. The composition of the committee reflects the nature of
the society created by the arrival of the railway - two cotton brokers, two stockbrokers, one merchant and one manufacturer. Matthew James GLENTON died in Brighton
and the money from this Bequest, was to be used just for the building of the church, he would not pay for the land this had to be raised elsewhere, and the church had to be dedicated to the Saints Matthew & James who`s names he
bore in his Will. It was to be built within 3 years of
his death ie; 2nd March 1871. One trustee was dead and
the other two were in South America.
The later had to be contacted and new Trustees appointed. The Bishop of Chester`s approval had to be obtained he
then had 7 men who formed the committee and raised the 750.00 the buy the land(at half it`s value from Mrs.BOLTON of Auton and her family, conveying it to the new trustees on 4th March 1870.
[ via: http://www.oldliverpool.co.uk/churches.html

Regards,
Cags
Cags
Forum Member
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:12 pm


Return to Kelsall strays & brickwalls

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron