Betty Beccah Kelsall (1764-1822)

Kelsall based in the British Isles or British territories (incl. East India Company)

Betty Beccah Kelsall (1764-1822)

Postby Andrew » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:52 pm

My interest in the Kelsall family starts with Betty Beccah Kelsall (1764-1822), my GGGG Grandmother. Her father was James Kelsall but he is difficult to trace back. It seems that he had some connection with the Liverpool Kelsalls but it has not yet been possible to make any meaningful connection. I have been greatly assisted by Anne who responded to a message of mine on an Ancestry message board. The name Kelsall was used in my family for quite a long time, the last known example I have found was my grandfather's brother William Kelsall Ballinger (1890-1892). I am looking forward to exploring the connection with the Kelsalls as it is the furthest back that I have managed to research.
Andrew
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Betty Beccah Kelsall (1764-1822)

Postby Anne.Kelsall » Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:37 am

Hi Andrew

Welcome to the forum, it is about time we had some activity here other than the spammers that keep getting in!

The topic over at Ancestry was http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/surnames.kelsall/30.1/mb.ashx
Copied here for convenience:

Andrew:
I haven't got as far back as you but noticed that Richard Kellsall married Elizabeth Johnson in 1709. They were married at the Parish Church of St. Nicholas in Liverpool. He was a woolen merchant. I am in the process of tracking his life in the Liverpool parish records and suspect that he may have been the Lord Mayor of Liverpool 1718.

Anne:
Andrew, I do not think that Mayor Richard Kelsall has any connection to the group that Helen is looking for (if memory serves, her group may be the Quakers that went to America?).

Although I do not have any proof, I suspect that Elizabeth JOHNSON was his first wife (six children, of whom I could not reliably track after baptism).

Mayor Richard Kelsall's [second] wife was heiress Sarah KING, and they had 11 children (most of whom I was able to follow). Richard Kelsall died in 1749 and was buried at Runcorn (where her family had held property).

The assumption that Elizabeth JOHNSON was his first wife is the connection that Thomas KENDRICK was a co-bondsman of the Kelsall-Johnson marriage, with Kendrick also being a Bailiff in the same year as Kelsall (1711). Kendrick's wife was Lettice KELSALL (married 1709 at Childwall, bondsmen Thomas Kendrick & Richard Kelsall). It is likely that Lettice was the sister of Richard Kelsall, although I cannot confirm that. I suspect that Richard and Lettice were born just outside of Chester and were not originally from Liverpool.

I also suspect that Elizabeth JOHNSON was the sister (or possibly the daughter) of Sir Thomas JOHNSON (another Mayor of Liverpool, who took over from his father of the same name in 1695).

Andrew:
Many thanks for the information. I have found a record of a marriage between Richard Kelsall and Elizabeth Johnson on 7.9.1709 at St Nicholas Church, Liverpool. I suspect that Elizabeth died around 1717/1718 as I found a reference to Articles of Agreement 1718

"between Sarah King of Halton, widow and relict and administrix of John King of Halton, gentleman, deceased, and Richard Kelsall of Liverpool, Esquire, lately married to Sarah King, only child of William King of Halton, gentleman, deceased...."
Cheshire Archives DBN/A/1/20

I have found evidence of five children born to Elizabeth; Thomas 1710, Thomas 1712, Johnson 1714, Lydia 1715 and Elizabeth 1716.
After 1718 I have found only five children: James 1719, Brooke 1726, John 1729, King 1732, Bryerwood 1737.
My interest is really in James as my relative Betty Beccah Kelsall (1764 to 1822) was the daughter of a James Kelsall, Land Surveyor. I am trying to confirm that this is the same James who was the son of Richard Kelsall.

Anne:
Hi Andrew

There was also a sixth child (the 2nd born) of Elizabeth & Richard Kelsall, that of Richard Kelsall, bapt 18 DEC 1711 St Nicholas, Liverpool. That would make sense with naming conventions, and the assumption would be that Richard's father would be a Thomas Kelsall, although I would have to look back and see if that matches my suspect outside Chester.

Richard junior, from this marriage, I think is the one who was in Customs or a Land Surveyor
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=91722

James Kelsall (bapt 29 JUL 1719 St Nicholas, Liverpool) seems to be the first child of Sarah KING and Richard KELSALL. I did seem to reliably marry him off to Margaret WILKINSON (25 Feb 1743 All Saints, Childwall) and they had quite a few children between 1745-1760). Included among those was an Elizabeth KELSALL (bapt 17 SEP 1753 St Nicholas, Liverpool) whom I wondered if was later known as Betty or Betty (Re)becca. I did find that "Betty Becca's" father was a James, but there was also a separate baptism for Betty Becca (02 APR 1764 Saint Peter, Liverpool), father listed as James, no mother. So this basically disproves that these are the same Elizabeth. In other words, the Betty Becca trail ends cold with father James KELSALL, and this James seems to be a stray of some sort, who does not fit very well as a grandson of Richard KELSALL/Sarah KING. If this James does fit, then he would have to be out of the sons of the presumed first marriage of Richard KELSALL and Elizabeth JOHNSON, but I was not able to reliably track these children, only a few vague assumptions. It was difficult because most of the burial records of that time and church were not available.

As for Sarah KING, the line of inheritance was totally fascinating, and she was 'last woman standing' in that line, plus some from her half-aunt as well. Sarah KING was not married before (she was only about 17 when she married Richard KELSALL, and I think he was about 16 years her senior). The other Sarah KINGs mentioned in the TNA documents are her half-aunt, and possibly her step-grandmother as well.

So in summary, I did actually try to fit the Betty Becca line into KELSALL/KING, with absolutely no luck whatsoever. The only real hope is in looking at the KELSALL/JOHNSON children. If I recall correctly, none of these children were mentioned in the (proven 1751) will of Richard KELSALL, so that was not a good sign.

Andrew:
Hi Anne
Thanks for your analysis - I am finding it difficult to place Betty Becca and agree that the link between her father and Richard Snr is a problem,and it seems that the relationship if any is not that of father and son. (especially given what you found in RK's will) On Betty's marriage certificate entry to Jonas Wilson Glenton there appears to be the signature of a Richard Kelsall which, together with her father's occupation of Land Surveyor suggests some sort of connection with the family of RK Snr. Later I have noticed that one of the lawyers involved in her father's bankruptcy was also a Richard Kelsall.
Again thanks for your help - this is a very interesting line of enquiry for me.

Anne:
Hi Andrew

Yes, it gets a bit tricky from the middle of the 18thC, and I was only able to assign slightly more than half into family groups. I must go back into it and do more, as I suspect this is where my brickwall originated from.

If you would like, join my Kelsall Forum, and upload the Betty Becca Kelsall certificate.
kelsall.info/forum/ (put http:// on the beginning)

I had also come across a very old message on rootsweb (2001) about Betty Becca Kelsall, from Carol Lloyd.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/ENG-LIVERPOOL/2001-09/1001776817
Joseph KELSALL (c1753-1841) and Rachael HICKSON (c1766-1828)
One of the two major "army" Kelsall lines.
Descendants in England, Australia, Ireland & Canada
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Betty Beccah Kelsall (1764-1822)

Postby Anne.Kelsall » Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:58 am

In looking over the St Peter Liverpool baptisms for the 1700s (all from IGI batch P020271) I had copied these over when it used to be easy to do so from the IGI. It is interesting that the Isaac name pops up at St Peter, and may tie in later with the group Helen Wilson was looking for:

PHILIP KOLSOLD - International Genealogical Index
Father: Richd KOLSOLD
Gender: Male Christening: 21 JAN 1759 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

JOHN KELSALL - International Genealogical Index
Father: James KELSALL
Gender: Male Christening: 09 MAR 1763 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

BETTY BECCAH KELSALL - International Genealogical Index
Father: James KELSALL
Gender: Female Christening: 02 APR 1764 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

THOMAS KELSALL - International Genealogical Index
Father: Thomas KELSALL
Gender: Male Christening: 01 AUG 1764 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

JOHN KELSALL - International Genealogical Index
Father: Thos KELSALL
Gender: Male Christening: 20 JUL 1766 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

JANE KELSALL - International Genealogical Index
Father: Thos KELSALL
Gender: Female Christening: 28 MAY 1773 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

JENNY KELSALL - International Genealogical Index
Father: Isaac KELSALL
Gender: Female Christening: 12 FEB 1764 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

JENNY KELSALL - International Genealogical Index
Father: Isaac KELSALL
Gender: Female Christening: 14 DEC 1766 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

ANN KELSALL - International Genealogical Index
Father: Isaac KELSALL
Gender: Female Christening: 28 AUG 1768 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

ISAAC KELSHALL - International Genealogical Index
Father: Isaac KELSHALL
Gender: Male Christening: 02 JAN 1774 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

ELIZABETH KELSALL - International Genealogical Index
Father: Peter KELSALL
Gender: Female Christening: 08 SEP 1771 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

GEORGE KELSALL - International Genealogical Index
Father: George KELSALL
Gender: Male Christening: 28 OCT 1781 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

JOHN KELSALL - International Genealogical Index
Father: John KELSALL Mother: Alice
Gender: Male Christening: 27 JUL 1796 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

WILLIAM KELSALL - International Genealogical Index
Father: John KELSALL Mother: Alice
Gender: Male Christening: 31 MAR 1797 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

MARY SHEPHERD KELSALL - International Genealogical Index
Father: John KELSALL Mother: Alice
Gender: Female Christening: 16 SEP 1798 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Joseph KELSALL (c1753-1841) and Rachael HICKSON (c1766-1828)
One of the two major "army" Kelsall lines.
Descendants in England, Australia, Ireland & Canada
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Betty Beccah Kelsall (1764-1822)

Postby Anne.Kelsall » Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:00 am

You mentioned Betty Beccah's marriage certificate. If you have a scan of it you are welcome to upload it here. If you have trouble uploading, there may be a restriction of three posts before you can do so.
Joseph KELSALL (c1753-1841) and Rachael HICKSON (c1766-1828)
One of the two major "army" Kelsall lines.
Descendants in England, Australia, Ireland & Canada
User avatar
Anne.Kelsall
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Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:41 pm

Betty Beccah Kelsall (1764-1822)

Postby Andrew » Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:16 pm

Marriage 1787 Betty Beccah Kelsall .jpg
Here is the scan of Betty Becca Kelsall's marriage to Jonas Wilson Glenton
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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Betty Beccah Kelsall (1764-1822)

Postby Anne.Kelsall » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:20 am

Moving Andrew's initial post to here, with an easier to find title (the board software doesn't allow me to rename threads that I can see).
Joseph KELSALL (c1753-1841) and Rachael HICKSON (c1766-1828)
One of the two major "army" Kelsall lines.
Descendants in England, Australia, Ireland & Canada
User avatar
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Re: Betty Beccah Kelsall (1764-1822)

Postby Cags » Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:44 pm

Hello All,
I am Carol Lloyd mentioned by Ann KELSALL :D I have been reading your comments and research with great interest.
Like yourselves, I am still trying to follow this family to whom I am connected via the GLENTON/HINDLEY's.
Jonas Wilson GLENTON Sr. b. 1763 - 1844 was my 4th Great Grandfather, then his son GLENTON, Henry, Sr 1796 - 1857, followed by GLENTON, Harriet 1828 - 1880, then HINDLEY, James Wilson Kelsall 1868 - 1949 (My 1st GGrandfather) then via his daughter, HINDLEY, Mary Ann 1901 - 1992. My mother d/o Mary Ann HINDLEY is still living and aged 80yrs was born on Isle of Man as I was myself.

Will try & add a few extra snippets for you, not much sorry, though you may have them already:
Found via Gore`s 1790 Directory for Liverpool via:
http://boards.ancestry.coM/localities.britisles.england.
lan.general/13698/mb.ashx
GLENTON, Jonas Wilton, Merchant,1, Newington Row
Counting-house, 1, Cleveland square, Liverpool.
*******************************************************************************************
Taken from BAINES 1824 Directory for Liverpool: via Genuki:
GLENTON Henry, customs officer, 2, Chapel place, Erskine St.
GLENTON Jonas Wilson,(custom's )Officer. 7, Crabtree Lane.
*******************************************************************************************
Taken from the 1832 Poll Book, Liverpool via Genuki:
GLENTON,HENRY,BOOK KEEPER,WALNUT STREET,LIVERPOOL,E & T,BGS/FMN
GLENTON,M. J.,BROKER,MARYLAND STREET,LIVERPOOL,E & S,BGS/FMN
*******************************************************************************************
Gore's 1827 Directory for Liverpool via Genuki:
GLENTON, Jonas Wilson, landing surveyor, 11,Irvine st,Edge hill
GLENTON, Matthew James, broker, 11, Maryland street
*******************************************************************************************
I had thought that if Betty Becca was to be found, she would have been born as
Elizabeth Rebecca KELSALL, but as you have all mentioned this has not been proven.
It is quite a complicated family to research, but between us we should make some headway ;)
Regards,
Carol LLOYD
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